The Pro and Con Argument
To build a bike from scratch is not that difficult as I've had the experience of building a few when I was in University, living in the US, where it was relatively easy to source for new components, and also used ones from cycling clubs in my area. Members usually get together once a month to trade unused items, so you just need to know what you want, then start shopping
Do you build your next bike from scratch or do you just go to the shop and buy one from the many you have seen in different shops and then just buy what fits your budget ?
There are Pros and Cons obviously. Buying a completely built bike gives you the service and tech support that you could require, as you ride along, compared to if you purchased compoents from all over the shops in Penang. However, with that said, I have been going around the shops in Penang over the last 2 months, sourcing for components to refurbish my bike, and my opinion is, the guys in the shops are all friendly, knowledgable, and generally welcoming. Obviously the guys that buy RM10,000 worth of stuff from them will get more royal treatment than someone like me, walking in to buy Yellow color cable housing in one shop and maybe a couple of spokes in another shop. To be frank, I'm surprised that these shops even entertain customers like me LOL !!
However, the CON, depending on how you look at it is, you get what you pay for and that's it really. You can say to the show owner, Look, I don't want Shimano pedals. Please change to Look for me. Well, unless the shop carries this brand, then you are not able to do this. So what do you do then ? When I lived in the US, there were 8 pretty big bike shops in my town, and going to one shop and then having the tech there calling the other shops to ship in stuff that they don't carry for me, that's normal and common. They bill you and inventory filling fee and that's it. Will the shops in Penang do it for you ? But more importantly, do any of the shops carry the components you want ? I doubt you are going to find a 2010 Campagnolo Carbon Fibre crank waiting for you in any of the shops in town. It a lack of choice, in my personal opinion, that is the CON in buying off-shelf
With that said, there are some PROs if you build your next bike up from scratch. Among some of the things you need to be able to do or have knowledge of are --
1) if you know what you want, this is very important. You can't build a bike if you don't know what you want and everything is based of the opinions of your friends. Biases will set in and you'll end up with a bike your friends love to ride, that's for sure. Maybe you won't like it.
2) have some basic knowledge on how to use a spreadsheet ( Excel for instance ), then you should be able to develop a blueprint to build the bicycle that you really want, within a budget that you predetermine. There are only so many components that make up a Road Bike or a MTB. Just list them all and then put in 3 columns for different brand and model and obviously differnt prices.
3) don't mind doing reading. If you are working within a budget, make sure you read what the different gruppos from Shimano do and to what market they serve. Just because someone you know, who rides once a month, and for short round island trips at 20kph, and his bike has Dura Ace gruppo, that doesn't mean that it is the best gruppo for such a riding use. It just means that your friend definitely has the $$ to invest in Dura Ace. STICK TO YOUR BUDGET and STICK TO YOUR NEEDS. If you also ride like that, the Sora gruppo will do very well already. Extra 1kg in total group weight is not going to improve or make your times worse by much lah. Chances are you are riding in a small group so you all will have a preset top speed. I believe the difference is RM3,000 to RM4,000 already, in just tat selection
4) don't be afraid to ask for advice, once you have made up your mind on a choice of 2 or 3 cranks or derailleurs. My personal opinion is don't ask until you know what your choices are narrowed down to.
| No. | Part Description | Brand | Model | Price |
| 1 | Frame, Chk height | I would budget RM800 to RM900 | 800.00 | |
| 2 | Fork, Chk if suspension | |||
| 3 | Stem, Chk size | Budget RM300 | 300.00 | |
| 4 | Handlebar, Chk size | |||
| 5 | Handlebar grip, Chk bar end | |||
| 6 | Crank, chk teeth | Shimano Acera Group | 800.00 | |
| 7 | Crank arm, chk leg length | |||
| 8 | Gear levers | |||
| 9 | Brake levers | |||
| 10 | Brakes front | |||
| 11 | Brakes Back | |||
| 12 | Front derailleur | |||
| 13 | Back derailleur | |||
| 14 | Bottom bracket | |||
| 15 | Chain | 40.00 | ||
| 16 | Chasette, Chk teeth | Shimano Acera | 100.00 | |
| 17 | Pedals | Shimano | 160.00 | |
| 18 | Front hub, chk if quick release | I would budget RM700 or less for this.Purchase a comlete set once and for all
|
700.00 | |
| 19 | Rear hub, chk if quick release | |||
| 20 | Rim | |||
| 21 | Spokes | |||
| 22 | Tyre | |||
| 23 | Cables | 200.00 | ||
| 24 | Seatpost | 150.00 | ||
| 25 | Seat | 90.00 | ||
| Total | 3,340.00 | |||
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Hi G'day Dr Lim,
I don't think cyclists who go for Campy SR11, Dura Ace or other premium group sets are all suckers. Of course, I don't discount the fact that some of them simply have the deep pockets but do not know much or passionate about cycling. Personally, I have tried DA before switching to SR11. I must say that although SR11's design is awesome and gives me 1 extra gear, DA definitely gave me good memory. But, for purist cyclists who dreamed of owning a high end Italian race machine since teenage, it is a dream come true when they can finally afford one. It's just like finally buying your first Rolex or Audemars Piguet watch after many years wearing Casio or Seiko. Some kind of self rewarding.
My buddy who have been cycling for more than 25 years bought his 3rd Pegoretti recently. The bikes are heavier than most high end carbon bikes but the satisfaction of owning a well designed hand made bike by the top Italian craftsman simply cannot be measured monetarily.
Have you seen some of the old Campy groupsets ? Unlike the cheaper ones, many have evolved into "work of art". Italian are well known for their flair in design and passions on cycling. Go watch Giro d Italia ( Astro814 ) 9pm until Sunday to figure out.
Picture of Old Campy brake. Still looks awesome, right ?
Driving a heavily modified Proton Wira or Mitsubishi Evolution Wannabe is incomparable to driving a Vintage Italian coupe
Enjoy your weekend ride.
Chao
SK
Yup, my favorite when I owned my first road bike, an Alan Carbonio 303. Look nice on Italian frame and look futuristic too. Like the Delta fighter in Battlestar Galactica!
btw ah... actually now i think want to jump back to MTB, but there is a slight dilema. i don't want to spend 14K on a bike only to realize that maybe MTB is just an itch for me. but on the other hand i'd really don't want to spenf 1-2K on a cheaper bike just to see if it's an itch. so does anyone know of any MTB rental ah?
Adrian,
I'm not a MTB person too, that's why I'm building one so that I can join G Club members in their monthly MTB rides. I'm strictly an end user, with very little technical knowledge of bicycles. Yes, I can patch a puncture and adjust brakes but beyond that I'm quite blurr.
I will spend some time going through the links that you posted up and will also invite my collegue Eng Cheong to assist me in the setting up of spreadsheet and in the sourcing of parts. Eng Cheong (call him EC) manages www.howei.com and he does a lot of sourcing of products. He is also a member of G Club and just recently he bought himself a Giant foldie. So you can assume his technical knowledge of bicycles is comparable to mine.
We will build this MTB up together. Once we are ready with the xls we will yell for more instructions !
Thanks Adrian.
Our email-
Daniel Shee (daniel AT howei.com)
Eng Cheong (engcheong AT howei.com)
Adrian, Let start with choosing the right frame.
What is the infor I need to aware of? Height? Weight? ...?
Daniel and EC,
I did a simple cross reference on Ebay, and this is how I searched...... Bicycle Frame, from the results, I narrowed down to RM400 to RM600, and from that set of results, I clicked Buy It Now ( This is how I purchse stuff from Ebay generally )
Some of the results I got are --
http://cgi.ebay.com.my/giant-atx-Pro-MTB-Frame-Bicycle-17-19-/2205916133...
http://cgi.ebay.com.my/2009-giant-ATX-Pro-MTB-Frame-bicycle-15-5-17-19-/...
Modifying the search to Bicycle MTB Frame will give you even more narrowed down choices
With this information in hand, go to a few local bike shops and enquire for the Frame Size that suits your body size best. Probably S or M. At the shop, enquire to see if you can purchase only frames and fork separately, to give you more options. I know a shop that will entertain you, but to keep this forum/guide neutral, let's not name names here. Otherwise I will be labelled a salesman instead, in no time.
If I were making decision on building a MTB, I'd go for aluminum frame as a preferred choice. They are light, and will make good all round riding vehicle. Easier to sell in future too because they generally fit most consumer choice. As for the fork, I probably won't need the hdraulic type that I see some of the sexy bikes have because I won't be off-roading much or at all, so that lowers my investment vis-a-vis your personal choice, which might involve some off-roading
The scientific method for generic purchase bike frames, is a simple calculator available here
http://www.ebicycles.com/article/bicycle-frame-size-charts.html
someone told me something that is pure common sense but few realize.
he say, why spend a few hundred more just to save a frw grams when you can go out for a ride and lose the same amount of weight (if not more). Save money and get into better shape too.
so i think sometimes it's easier/cheaper to reduce the cyclist's weight than the bike.
Ha ha. Can wait to get a pot shot on this one. I think most of us realised that to lose weight of the engine is cheaper than to lose weight on the bicyle but unfortunately just like ladies going for liposuction instead of other more natural ways, it is unfortunately our selfish instant gratification human nature. We want to have a weight reduction immediately and no matter how low the weight of the bicycle goes, people are still trying to lower it. That is our human nature for good or for bad.
So there will always be suckers who will pay through their nose for a few grams of bike weight reduction.
Personally I don't think so. They just have larger wallets and are happy to spend. The value of riding a full campy record bike is obviously higher for me than one with Ultegra, but in real life, I doubt I'll go faster. And also, the difference of RM12,000 in gruppo pricing, if not mistaken.
The cheapest I have heard for the Campy Super Record 11v is about RM7k. Miche Supertype 11v Carbon gruppo is the most expensive I have seen, RM19k(excld shipping charges, with Miche carbon wheelset). Both Campy and Miche components are interchangeable.
For Shimano schools, DA Di2 is about RM12k(But I think you can get something less(much less) for the bootleg copies from down south). SRAM RED is about RM8k, I think.
Thank you turbosnail. It's a good sharing from you.
The more you ride, the more weight you lose or transfer into muscles.
Some links for you to read up on. There are lots available on the internet. These are some that are very generic and useful in my opinion
http://sheldonbrown.com/glossary.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/diy/index.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/brakes/index.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/seatpost-sizes.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html ( Shimano Gearing system )
Rgds
Adrian
There is only 1 CON. The SHIOK SENDIRI syndrom. If you don't have strong willpower, don't build your next bike from scratch. You'll end up with something that costs more than your budget, might even end up with something built from all kinds of components you really don't need, and you will lose the fun and experience to be earned from building your own bike.
I've seen guys go around asking 10 friends about their bikes, components, etc... and then end up building that 1 bike with a mixture of all the different components used from those 10 bikes, such as, if 8 persons use XT rear derailleur, then I also use XT. If 4 guys have a Trek body, then I also have a Trek body. This is a big CON in building your own bike, if you have weak will power.
Hahaha, if you have very weak will power and want to build your own bike, and your budget is RM3000, please come and see me. I'll help you build a bike with Trek body, but use Colnago stickers, Sugino Bottom Bracket and Shimano crank arms, etc..... I'll mix it all up so nicely for you. You could even end up with MTB derailleur on a road bike ( they work well, btw )
RM3k build mtb a bit difficult unless used parts. no need to mention XT unless match 8 speed groupo with XT derailleur. RM4k is more realistic. assume buy new those common/average grade components. haven' t include frame, handle, stem, seatpost, headset, grip & saddle.
deore groupo + brakeset ~RM1.3k
mavic crossride wheelset ~RM700
suntour epicon fork ~RM650
kevlar tyres + tubes ~RM200 or maybe more
note: above figures are estimates, NOT promoting buy/sell here.
If you want to build your own bike, you have to have some knowledge about what are you dealing with(not simply repatch your tires or stuff like that). I would advice you to list what you want from your first MTB first. Generally, parts for MTB are cheaper in Malaysia since it is more popular than road bike now(A comparable roadie gruppo are more expensive than MTB ones.) Decide what level of components you are looking and start listing them down and compare their feature, weights etc. Do a lot of readings too from magazines, books and on the net. Talk to someone who are very familiar with mountain biking and build their own bike to understand why are they picking the components they are using now and make your decision if you really need them. The use of spreadsheet to plan your bike building is a good way to start. I use that too when I built my Diamondback and my VooDoo Zobop 11 years ago and my Trek 1000SL recently. It roughly let me know what would I get and how much would I need to spend. Yes, it costs more than a completely built bikes sold in LBS. But the end result will be unique to mine only.
A decent MTB HT frame can be more than RM1000 a piece. A decent crank, i.e. Shimano SLX can be around RM400. Derailuers and other drivetrain can add up to another RM1200(Avid disc brake set-RM600. FD+RD=RM300. Cables+housing=RM100. Cassette=RM200) The cockpit stuff, ahead set, handlebar, stem, saddle post, saddle, that's about RM500. If you decide to build your own decent wheels, it adds another RM800.00(hubs, spokes, rims, tires). Add all these estimates up, you are looking at around RM3900.00
So chicken's estimate is about right, and we are talking about a decent, workable HT but not a race ready 21~23lbs machine.
Other options are looking at lesser known brands, i.e., Merida, Xtension, Polygon etc. I found theirs are really value for money. You can have a nice full suspension bike with very good geometry and components for less than 5k from them while others could cost more than that. Merida is the major shareholder of Specialized now and have their own trade team. Polygon too have their own continental trade teams for Road and MTB. They can't be that bad if they are able to sponsor their own trade teams and own some shares in some major bike company.
Thanks Alan for the feedback.
We hope to keep to the budget and I intend to build this MTB together with EC and my other collegues. So it will be a "howei DIY MTB bike" !
At the end of the day it's the experience and the knowledge gained from this exercise that counts. Of course the bike has to be ridable !
EC will be doing the spreadsheet and once it's up we hope to post it up here for all to view.
Cheers !
Whoa already up by 1k even before we kick start the project? Maybe Adrian's estimate is for road bike? MTB could be more? It a challenge, will see...
I will try to post up the speardsheet once it's properly setup. Cheers !
Daniel
Stick to the budget and stick to the spreadsheet. There are lots of brands of equipment and components not made by Campy or Shimano, that cost less and are just as good. The logic is to look at it in perspective and think, would anyone open up a multi-million dollar factory and produce crappy components to begin with ?
Recently, I'm quite interested with SRAM product and they have a very wide range and pricing strategy. I am doing a lot of reading on their product.
At the end of the day, it's how you ride or want to ride that determines the bike you build. I think you are still on track as long as you do up the spreadsheet first
Adrian,
Meeting once a month to trade old parts is a fantastic idea. G Club should organise this. And building a flashy MTB for RM 3000 ? sounds quite unbelievable!
Adrian, weak in $ but not weak in will power lah. OK, what's the first step to build my own MTB ?
Daniel,
Let's use you as an example of a person going through the process of building a MTB from scratch. I am not a MTB user, so my needs are very different if I built 1 from scratch. Knowing what kind of riding you will be doing is important first. Then you can proceed
First step is to fire up the PC and build a spreadsheet called Danilel-Bike-1 obviously. Then you create the list of componets that make up a bike, such as body, fork, crank, crankshaft, brakes, brakepads ( they cost money too hahaha ), etc..... and then on the side of every Item, you create 6 columns, for brand and model and price, brand and model and price, brand and model and price
Then you start working hard lah, by searching online, and asking shops for tentative pricing for the components that you have in mind. Actually, asking friends to see what they have on board their bikes is a good idea, but only if you are a person who can make a decision and don't become too Shiok Sendiri, otherwise you will kill the budget.
Personally, I think the biggest cost killer is the body, with MTBs because I see so many variants available in the shops. Once you have that down, the rest of your budget goes to components. In my opinion, you can always save on stuff like seat ( no need the RM700 carbon fibre one if the RM70 one is nice and comfy ) or in stuff like wheel sets and tires, unless you are going for competitive riding. Basically, from a manufacturer's point of view, no one manufactures lousy or low grade components to begin with. Differences are in the pricing mechanism and also perception of quality.
In my opinion, when it comes to body, if you are not a competitive rider, bodies from all types of material such as steel, aluminum, carbon fibre, hybrid material, they are all about the same, except for weight saving and body flex. But seriously, plus 1kg is not going to hurt you and most of us are not into the competitive science of how much flex the body has and how many Kj/hour we are losing by using this body or that body.
For the semi building from scratch method, there's also the option of buying a new bike or used bike for RM1,500 or less and then tricking it out. This is also an option but probably not the purpose of this discussion thread because we preferably build from scratch.
Let me know how you progress after you are done creating the spreadsheet and building up a component database. Hahaha, in fact, this journey of yours, whether you build the bike or not, that spreadsheet can serve as a base to share with the members here, and give them confidence if they wish to repeat the journey.
Daniel
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/derailers-rear.html
Worth taking a look at this page to understand your needs in derailleur selection. Having basic understanding of the science helps you make better component matching.
The price difference available on that page, between a Deore and XT is over RM200, but the weight savings is only 80g ( which is 2 sachets of Old Town White Coffee ). Both perform well to be frank, and will serve the owner well. You don't know how to ride properly, you go whack one of those Cat 5 Trails, you will still screw up the bike and you end up in hospital, in my opinion.
Front derailleur has matching with the crank, so you actually have to develop matching for these 2, together.
And crank has matching with the body and bottom bracket, so this set has to be studied. Other than that, most components are open for mix and match, in my opinion.